Practical Penumbra

(1) I don't think that retribution is a noble human sentiment, let alone "the noblest". Retribution is not the same as justification or self-defense. After all, vendetta is what sustains La Cosa Nostra, especially in Sicily.

(2) Obviously, no one deserved the gruesome fate of those killed and mutilated in Fallujah; I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

(3) But the question actually posed by the truncated quote remains: what precipitated that horrific event? Do we know what private military people are doing? Do we know what role they're playing in the current prison abuse scandal? What did we know about Fallujah before the spectacle?

Norbizness, I love you dearly, but do I care what precipitated those prison guards to pose Iraq prisoners into sexually explicit tableaus and take photos? Do I know what vital military information they were trying to extract by humiliating the prisoners? Do I know what role those prisoners had in terrorist activities against coalition forces? Will that information make what those guards did less wrong? No, it won't--just as knowing the answers to any of YOUR questions is irrelevent to what was done to those four men in Fallujah.

What would you say to someone who said "The mistreatment of the Iraqi prisoners, I think, is retribution for something that hasn't yet come to light"? I would say that person is an apologist for the prison guards...just as the person who made the statement I quoted is an apologist for the subhumans who murdered and mutilated the contractors...

With a little reading, we can answer some of Norbiz's Qs -

What precipitated the horrific events? Those that wish to cause as much trouble thereby hindering the conversion of Iraq into a secular democracy carrying off an ambush of opportunity, then whipping up a crowd of indignant, ignorant people to bring out the worst trait of man - the unrestrained mob, while inviting the media to record the event.

As far as relationship between the Blackwater guys and the CACI guys at Abu Graif - none. Seperate companies, seperate contracts, seperate missions. This wasn't a direct 'eye-for-an-eye' situation. The events at the prison were probably unknown to the perpetrators/organisers as well as the crowd in the news reports.

What we know of Fallujah before this incident is that it has historically been a 'bad part of town' - even Saddam had trouble keeping a lid on things. Although, 'trouble' for Saddam was a bit less of a n issue, as his methods (kill the ringleader, and his family) was more persuasive than the methods we are using, or will use. Still, Fallujah, by all reporting, has never been a 9 to 5, everybody to prayer calls 5 times a day, strong Rotarians and Moose Lodge kinda place.

Norbizness demonstrates one of the greatest enabling tendencies that allows the 'Hate America Firsters' to gain purchase - the speculation that possibly, somehow, in some small respect, their fucked up line of thinking has some, however small, grain of truth.

I'd submit that for the most part, such grains of truth have about as much relevance as a grain of sand buried under a pile of manure, and are about as worthwile digging out. They may be there, they may not - and do you really want to go through that much shit just to find out? And if you do, then what?

As for whatever that 'Hate America Firster' crack meant, I have no idea. Like I said, retribution is not the same as justification, that's why I didn't see the original statement as apologeia. The violence and destruction in L.A. riots were not justified by the announcement of the Rodney King verdict, and yet they occurred. To say "oh well, that's just Compton" just leaves the powder dry for another flare-up.

If what Wind Rider says is correct, then there are sections of Iraq that will go absolutely batshit for no reason, and obviously other neighborhoods with more pro-American sentiment (although that's rapidly diminishing). We on the computers here outside of Iraq have a vague idea, and we're not becoming any better informed through the media.

Trust me, I don't want to give either line of reasoning (prison abuse / Fallujah mutilation) any credence at all; and I wasn't positing some connection between the private military in Fallujah and the private interrogators at the prison--- just wondering what in the hell they're doing.

The word "retribution" is a loaded one, and it implies a "deserved" response ("divine retribution" as an example.) Therefore I inferred that the person I quoted thought the contractors did something to "deserve" what befell them.

WR's "Hate America Firsters" are those folks who refuse to believe that anyone other than themselves can act unselfishly, that altruism is reserved to the left, and if the US sends a shipment of grain to a starving nation, it's not to help the hungry, it's because someone got a kickback. Then, because they harp on the point over and over, investigations are launched, panels are convened, millions of dollars are wasted in an attempt to uncover that a customs officer was bribed to speed up the process, and the staving people are forgotten in the ensuing finger pointing and scandal, because the fact that one unscrupulous person profitted from the gift "proves" that the entire program was designed to bribe customs guards...

Speaking from the left, but certainly not FOR the left, I have to add that those sentiments are definitely not mine. No human being deserves what those four suffered. Nor does any action or actions that preceeded the event justify their murder and the horrific treatment of their bodies.

While I'm not sure I agree with the U.S. government's extensive use of civilian security forces (can we call them mercenaries?), and I know I do not agree with how the U.S. has handled just about every aspect of the war from before day one, I mourn the deaths of the four men in Fallujah, as well as every one of the service men and women who has died since the war began.